Andrew ([info]perspectivism) wrote,
@ 2007-12-25 17:52:00
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The REAL story of Christmas...
I love the holidays this year.

AND, as Dec 25th rolls to an end, let's take just a moment to make logical sense of the Christians' culturally prevailing story.

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There is no pure logic in faith, and I find it also difficult to find faith in logic....
[info]logicaltrader
2007-12-27 03:09 am UTC (link)
Our ability to intellectualize stories (true, false, allegorical) and to consider dogma the same as simple faith never ceases to amaze me.

I was surprised when one of the bloggers to that Oxford journal wanted God to create a miracle every generation or so just to let us know that He was around. Well, if one believes in intelligent design, all one has to do is open one's eyes and see it in operation each day.

Even if one believes only in the gnostic texts (that were cut out of the Bible during King James time (and some slightly before and just after), many of them contest the resurrection of Christ in the flesh, but NOT in the ascension of the Spirit. Yes, Catholicism seems to depend on ritualism, Methodism seems to still cling to the belief that one must physically act by will to receive salvation as opposed to having the Holy Spirit enter them (something I will never understand, and I was once a Methodist). I also disdained the Methodist Church I went to back in the late 1960s and 1970s that told me I had to oppose certain political stances or be cast into Hell (and these guys were militant Marxists). I got really tired of listening to political propaganda disguised as religion, which is why I LEFT Methodism and why I think it is still split along social/sexual issues the way that the Episcopal Church is currently.

All I know is that I have seen alcoholics turn away from their dependency based solely on their faith in Christ. I have seen former drug addicts, thieves, and (though the law will never change his circumstances, and probably rightly so)even a serial child abuser turn away from their problems. That is miracle enough for me.

And as far as trying to intellectualize the promise of Christ, I remember the Gospel of Luke containing Jesus' conversation with one of the two thieves. Did Jesus ask the thief "Do you believe the world is exactly 7000 years old, and do you believe in the great flood, and that I never even kissed Mary Magdalene on the lips?" before proclaiming the thief's place in heaven? Nope...

The conversation went a little bit like this:

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, "Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss." And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

That doesn't sound all that complex or canonical does it? A simple act of faith is what it took.

And the amazing thing is, despite the conflict over the Greek translation and removal of certain text from the New Testament, there is little dispute (even from those who deny the physical resurrection), that this did happen and that Jesus did indeed visit the apostles after his crucifixion.

My point is this, whatever your faith is, have it. It is yours. The degree to which you over-intellectualize anything that you dislike or do not wish to understand or empathize with is a personal exercise that is a waste of time. Accept that others have different opinions or beliefs, and let it go.

We have already seen what the last 2000 years of conflict between religions and between religions and governments have brought us. Why can we not simply accept our differences and move forward?

I believe in that Gospel message and I also believe in this simple message. It is the First Amendment of the Constitution, before it was perverted by the self-absorbed lard-bottomed Machiavellian heir to a beer fortune, John McCain.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Religion in the public square used to be a thing we all accepted. Now, everyone is offended by everyone else's expression of same. (To be continued)

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Re: There is no pure logic in faith, and I find it also difficult to find faith in logic....
[info]logicaltrader
2007-12-27 03:11 am UTC (link)
Please, everyone, GROW UP. You do not have to pray at a football ceremony. You do not have to face east before morning and evening prayer if you do not want to. Do what is right by your beliefs, and leave everyone else alone. You do, as a legal right, have the ability to leave home, in many states, at 17, and in some at 18, if you feel that you are being wronged by your parents over religious or other issues. My dad bailed out on my grandfather at 14 because he wanted to start a business and headed to Florida from Tennessee. He did, but World War II broke out, and he dropped that to volunteer in the Navy.

Be sure that you can support yourself, but you can secure your own freedom if you have the (I love this term) testicular fortitude to do so (females, figure out your own term).

But please, stop trying to force the world, people and politicians, into a mold that only you can fit. Grow up and understand that the entire world cannot conform to your religious or social standards. And that goes for every religious or social order. The founders had it right. We need to get back to what the founders intended.

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:)
[info]perspectivism
2007-12-27 05:12 am UTC (link)

I get that you're saying a lot here...and sometimes I hate it when people ask me just one concrete question when I have a lot to say...but:

Is one thing you're saying that for some reason you personally believe in the resurrection of JC (after crucification) but not in Mary's godly (virgin) insemination?

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[info]radtea
2007-12-27 09:00 pm UTC (link)

The best thing about this is it's the first time I've seen someone explicitly referencing the Bayesian plausibility of God who is not me. I'm sure there have been other cases, many predating my own, but this is the first one I recall seeing. It is inevitable that as Bayesian thinking percolates through the world more and more people will realize that:

1) "God exists" is an ordinary proposition

2) It has a very low plausibility without an insanely biased prior

3) The name of that insanely biased prior is "faith".

All it takes is a simple act of epistemological error to believe.

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[info]perspectivism
2008-01-08 07:30 am UTC (link)

I completely agree!

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[info]perspectivism
2008-01-08 07:30 am UTC (link)


...and particularly well said!

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